Andy Rowell | Church Leadership Conversations

Advice about Duke Th.D. and Ph.D programs in theology

Here are my answers to the Frequently Asked Questions I get about doing a doctorate in theology.  In this post, I address the difference between the Duke Th.D and. Ph.D. programs, discuss financial stipends, dissertations, the application process, job prospects, and some thoughts on the Doctor of Ministry (D.Min.) degree offered at some theological schools.

I am doing my Th.D. at Duke and wrote this in my second year of the program.  I am happy to be corrected by emails to me or comments below.  I get lots of emails from people about the Th.D. program at Duke and so I thought I would just try to put this information in a blog post to be helpful.  This information should not be taken as absolutely correct but rather can serve as an introduction to the issues so that you can ask good questions to faculty and program directors who know what they are talking about.

What is the difference between the Duke Th.D. and Ph.D. program in theology?

• Read the official information on the respective websites: Doctor of Theology degree at Duke Divinity School and Graduate Program in Religion's website and Graduate Program in Religion at Duke University.  Update May 3, 2009: the FAQ for the Th.D. program has been updated and is excellent.
• I understand why people are confused about the Th.D. and Ph.D. at Duke.  The Th.D. program is only three years old.  Let’s start with the basics because it is easy to be confused.  The Th.D. is from Duke Divinity School--part of Duke University.  The Ph.D. is from the Graduate Program in Religion at Duke University.  Like Duke, Harvard University has a Ph.D. and Harvard Divinity School has a Th.D..  Compare the Duke Divinity School faculty with the Graduate Program in Religion faculty--there is some overlap.  Mark Goodacre, a professor in the Graduate Program in Religion, says the best way of saying this is: "The Graduate Program in Religion is made up of faculty from both the Department of Religion and the Divinity School."  At Duke University, you can take courses in any part of the university (with some limitations) so courses are not an issue.  Many courses are cross-listed as both Duke Divinity School courses and Religion courses.  I have not mentioned that the Graduate Program in Religion offices are located in the Divinity School building.  No wonder people have trouble understanding the difference.
• The first group of Th.D. students started in August 2006.  I started in August 2007.  They just sent out acceptance letters to the fourth class of students in February 2009 who will start in August 2009.  The Duke Ph.D. program had its first graduates in 1939.    
• They are very similar programs.  They have similar requirements (coursework, languages, preliminary exams, dissertation proposal, dissertation) though there are some procedural differences.  For example, the preliminary exams process has to do with “fields” in the Ph.D. program and “concentrations” in the Th.D. program.  The Ph.D. program entails 4 preliminary exams and the Th.D. program entails 3 preliminary exams.  You can take classes with the same professors.   
• The Th.D. and Ph.D. students take classes together and hang out with one another.  The discipline-specific colloquiums include both Th.D. and Ph.D. students.  For example, people interested in theology (Th.D. and Ph.D.) talk to each other a lot. 
• My understanding is that the best funding for the Th.D. is:  tuition covered with a $13,000 per year stipend for 4 years (but the packages vary).  Th.D. students purchase their own health insurance through Duke individually (age 26 to 34, the annual charge is $1,690/yr.) and if they wish for their spouse and children.  My understanding is that the Ph.D. program offers:  tuition covered with a $20,000 per year stipend for 5 years and individual health insurance for the individual student.  (Students with families may elect to pay an additional premium for family coverage just like the Th.D. students).  I know Th.D. and Ph.D. students whose children have health insurance through Medicaid.  Spouses tend to work and bring in some additional income and/or people take out student loans. 
• Note how similar the Ph.D. and Th.D. stipend numbers are to stipend statistics published in the Chronicle of Higher Education.  "For instance, biology departments reported an average research-assistant stipend of $18,200 for an appointment that typically lasts a full 12 months. Students in English, however, got an average teaching-assistant stipend of $13,387 for an academic year." From "Graduate Students' Pay and Benefits Vary Widely, Survey Shows" By AUDREY WILLIAMS JUNE in the Chronicle of Higher Education December 5, 2008.
• My understanding is that the Duke Th.D. program this year accepted 9 students out of 75 applicants.  The Th.D. website has a description of concentrations. You have a primary and secondary area of concentration; you do preliminary exams in both.  Here is a partial list of the "concentrations" of some of the people in the program in the first four classes—(the repetition is intentional).  Some listed below are combined primary and secondary concentrations; for others it is just a primary concentration--I don't know which.
• Bible and Christian practices
• Christian formation and creation care
• Evangelism and culture 
• Evangelism and ecclesiology 
• Homiletics
• Homiletics      
• Homiletics and reconciliation   
• Homiletics and reconciliation
• New Testament
• OT Theology & Ethics
• Theological Aesthetics
• Theology (Friendship)
• Theology and aesthetics
• Theology and Christian formation
• Theology and Pedagogy
• Theology, narrative, and community
• Theology, politics, and culture 
• Theology, politics, and culture 
• Wesleyan theology and practices
• Youth Ministry / Education

• My understanding is that Duke's Graduate Program in Religion Ph.D. program takes about one student per year for each of its 11 fields.

1.    Hebrew Bible/Old Testament
2.    New Testament
3.    Early Christianity
4.    European Christianity
5.    American Religion
6.    History of Judaism
7.    Islamic Studies
8.    Christian Theological Studies
9.    Religion and Modernity
10.  Asian Religions
11.  Religion and Modernity

• To be exact, in the last 2 years, they have made 9 offers each year. See Duke University Graduate School Admissions and Enrollment Statistics (PhD Religion Only).

• I am told that the Christian Theological Studies has 70 applicants for one spot.  New Testament has perhaps 50 applications for one spot.  But I am told that some of the fields may have only 3 applications for one spot.  In the eleven fields in the Graduate Program in Religion, they accepted 9 out of 207 applicants total in 2008-2009.

What kind of work/ministry do Th.D/Ph.D. students hope to do in the future?

• Like the Ph.D., the Th.D. prepares someone to serve as a professor at the college, seminary and graduate school level (both secular and Christian schools).  It is possible that people will end up working for churches, denominations, publishing houses, parachurch organizations, and missions organizations but the degree is not primarily about that.  It is hard to know how hard it will be to find a job.  If we posit that there will be similar opportunities for Th.D. students as there are for Ph.D. students, I would say the outlook is mixed.  Some Duke Ph.D. students have gotten jobs at great schools; some have gotten jobs at not-so-great schools; and some have had a hard time finding them.  See the DUKE UNIVERSITY GRADUATE SCHOOL PH.D. PLACEMENT DATA FOR STUDENTS GRADUATED IN 2000-2007--Religion.  Are you interested in academia as a career?  Remember this is 4-7 years of full-time study—average 5.8.  (See Duke University Median Registered Time to Degree to Ph.D. for Students Entering in 1997-2002 (Years)—Religion).  
• For a sober view of the hiring scene, see the article Graduate School in the Humanities: Just Don't Go: It's hard to tell young people that universities view their idealism and energy as an exploitable resource.  By THOMAS H. BENTON in The Chronicle in Higher Education column AN ACADEMIC IN AMERICA, January 30, 2009.
• See the Graduate Program in Religion Alumni Directory. 
• Update: Note also Duke Ph.D student Maria's good comments below about her sense that people who want to teach at a non-Christian university or college are probably better off doing the Ph.D. and those interested in working in a Christian college, university or seminary are more likely to be in the Th.D. program.  I think she is generally right BUT there are lots of exceptions to that (which she acknowledges).  For example, there are many Ph.D. grads at Duke from the fields of Christian Theological Studies and New Testament that have ended up at Christian institutions: Christian Theological Studies (William T. Cavanaugh--University of St. Thomas, Telford Work--Westmont College, Jonathan Wilson--Carey Theological College, Glen Stassen,  John L. Thompson, Robert K. Johnston--Fuller Theological Seminary, John Jefferson Davis--Gordon Conwell Theological Seminary, Beth Felker Jones--Wheaton College) and New Testament (Craig Keener--Palmer Theological Seminary, Marianne Meye Thompson, Love L. Sechrest, J. R. Daniel Kirk, Fuller Theological Seminary, Rollin Grams--Gordon Conwell Theological Seminary, Leroy A. Huizenga--Wheaton College, James H. Charlesworth, C. Clifton Black,  J. Ross Wagner, Beverly Roberts Gaventa--Princeton Theological Seminary)   And I know a few of the Th.D. students hope to be in secular universities and colleges.  Again though I would agree with Maria in general that the Th.D. tends to lead you toward Christian settings whereas as the Ph.D. tends to be more diverse.  
• See also Regent College professor John Stackhouse’s post:Qualifications for Teaching at a Small Christian College November 22, 2008
• See also the sober post by Keith Drury, a professor at Indiana Wesleyan University, on what a college professor of religion actually does each week (80 hours for him) and how to break into college teaching. H/T Russ Veldman.

Do you have access to all the incredible faculty at the Duke Divinity School and Duke University?  Is that through coursework, or just as advisors?

• You take 12 courses in the Th.D (3 per semester for four semesters).  You can basically take the 12 courses with anyone you want.

Did your seminary work adequately prepare you for doctoral work? 

• Yes, seminary prepared me well and I bet your seminary prepared you fairly well.  But one needs to be passionate about the field they are interested in and to have read beyond seminary courses.  Reading needs to be a barely-in-control-passion in your life.  :-)  See the next question about the difficulty of getting in.    
• Reading Augustine, Aquinas, Luther, Wesley, Barth and MacIntrye will serve you well.  Schleiermacher, Kant, Yoder, Hauerwas, and Milbank wouldn't hurt too.  Besides reading their foundational works, I wonder if reading a biography about each of these theologians might be the best way to orient oneself to their theology and context. 
• You might want to read secondary sources that orient you to postliberalism which is what many at Duke have wrestled with—few would still label themselves that way—who likes labels?—but most operate from a position close to postliberalism at Duke Divinity School.  (For evangelicals, this is actually not that different from what you believe even though you may never have heard of it—see the works below). 

• The Nature of Confession 
• The Nature of Doctrine by George A. Lindbeck
• Beyond Liberalism and Fundamentalism by Nancey Murphy
• Introducing Radical Orthodoxy by James K. A. Smith

 
Do you have any advice for me on applying to the Th.D./Ph.D. program? 

To get into a first-tier program that provides a stipend, you must be special in some way and you must be adequate in most every area. 

• GPA (Duke Ph.D.Religion averages 3.6 undergraduate GPA)
• GRE (Duke Ph.D.Religion averages 729 Verbal and 739 Quantitative).  Th.D. FAQ #6: "There is no specific minimum score. Students admitted to the Th.D. through our first four years had a mean GRE verbal score of 690 and a mean GRE quantitative score of 655."  See my post How to Study for the GRE.
• Writing sample (See mine on Bonhoeffer here).
• Languages (See my post How to Learn to Read Theological German).
• Previous quality of schools you attended
• References: quality, connections, and impressiveness of people giving references and how highly they rave about you.
• Personal Statement (like a cover letter.  “This is why I want to study at your school . . .” ).
• Previous publications.
• Visit—personal impression you made of intellect and social skills.
• Inside connections
• Previous teaching experience at high school or college level and/or compelling ministry experience and/or international experience
• A compelling story and vision for publishing, teaching and ethics in the future
• Diversity
• Th.M. (from Yale, Princeton, Duke, Cambridge, Oxford, or another school might help).
• Masters degrees or doctoral degrees (MBA, M.D., J.D.) in other areas in addition to your 3 year—MDiv or 2 year—Masters of Theology would be a bonus. 
• Be in touch with the director of the Th.D./Ph.D. program at the schools of your interest (for example, Randy Maddox, the director of the Th.D. program at Duke) if you have questions.

I would visit on your own dime all the schools you want to go to.  Get familiar with the work of 4-5 professors who you like from the school.  Then visit and meet with the professors—one-on-one appointments for 15 minutes each all in one day; plus one with the Th.D./Ph.D. program director.   You want to be able to name why the school is the best possible place for you to study because your interests coincide with A, B, C and D professors and that they could uniquely prepare you in your areas of interest.  (See also Maria's comment below that she didn't visit and still got in to the Ph.D. program).  

I think it is pretty hard to get into a school without the inside knowledge of how to get in (whether that be an acquaintance who is there who gives you the scoop or a professor who wants you.)  I don't mean to paint it too scary but I did not get in anywhere in my first round of applications (0 for 5 the first year) and then got in at 3 out of the 5 places I applied the second year after talking to people.  (Details in the comments below).  Get your friends and others (at the school ideally) to help you with your statement and sample writing. 

Basically, you have a better chance of getting more scholarship money and a better chance at getting a job at "first-tier" schools.  (See Stackhouse and Gupta links below).  Duke professors seem to have strong relationships with Yale University, Emory University, Princeton Theological Seminary, University of Chicago, and Notre Dame so one hears a lot about these schools at Duke but it depends on the field what schools are first tier institutions.  A professor or author you respect can easily tell you their opinion of what schools to consider and you can weigh their opinion.   

See also:

• My post about my Th.D./Ph.D. application process.  I wrote it at the time I was applying to programs but I think the advice still stands. 
• Regent College professor (Ph.D. from University of Chicago) John Stackhouse’s Weblog post: Thinking about a Ph.D.?
• Durham (UK) Ph.D. student Nijay Gupta's post about New Testament Ph.D. programs applies to many other programs.

 

What's the big deal about dissertations?  What will your dissertation be about?

First a couple comments about dissertations. 

(a) It is difficult to finish one.  It is long solitary work on some piece of obscure scholarship.  Therefore people say things like, "A finished dissertation is a good dissertation." "Write for your advisor not the whole world."  "Unleash all your creativity and genius in your second book--not your dissertation."  "Limit its scope.  Write the __________ topic in the writing of __________ scholar."  "Let each of your 12 seminar papers be dissertation chapters if possible."  "Remember that everything one writes is in some sense unfinished."  I recommend How to Write a Lot by Paul J. Silvia for advice about churning out lots of written work--everyone should read it.

(b) You can get hired before your dissertation is completed and be ABD (All But Dissertation) but then you carry the heavy burden of trying to finish this obscure piece of scholarship while you are preparing lectures for introductory courses to undergraduates and grading their papers.  These are two very different ends of the academic spectrum and therefore one should try very hard to finish the dissertation before starting work as a professor.  For balancing teaching and writing, I highly recommend Advice for New Faculty Members by Robert Boice.

Note the similar advice of Steven Cahn from a review of his book  From Student to Scholar: A Candid Guide to Becoming a Professor (Columbia University Press, 2008).  JAMES M. LANG, "'From Student to Scholar': A senior professor writes a new guide for graduate students on pursuing a faculty career," February 3, 2009, Chronicle of Higher Education. 

In the conclusion to his first chapter, "Graduate School," Cahn asks, and answers, a question in a way that I think most graduate students need to hear: "What is the most important ingredient for success in graduate school? Many might answer 'brilliance.' I, however, would choose 'resiliency.'"  As he points out, most students who are admitted into graduate schools are capable of handling the work on an intellectual level. Many students who end their graduate careers prematurely do so because they have become discouraged by the endless series of tasks and obstacles that lie in the way of the degree — not because they have been unable to hack the academic work. Thus, when he sees students walk across the stage to receive their Ph.D.'s, he writes, "I'm not convinced that all the recipients possess remarkable intellectual talents. I am certain, though, that every one has demonstrated the power to persevere."  On the time needed to complete a dissertation, Cahn's advice is equally brisk and demanding: "Any time beyond two years is excessive. Indeed, I would expect the task to be completed in 12 to 18 months."  That advice might sound hard to graduate students in the midst of dissertation projects that seem to stretch out endlessly before them. But projects that run far beyond the normal time frame often do so because the students want to produce that perfect book, and so they bog themselves down in revisions — hoping to pre-empt their mentors — and turn in a near-finished product. In the end, as Cahn points out, "no one will ask you whether your dissertation was passed with major or minor revisions. All that matters is that you have fulfilled every requirement for the degree."

My dissertation is still being developed--that is more of a third year thing and I am in the second year--but my paper on John Howard Yoder on my blog is probably the best thing to see the direction I am interested in: leadership, ecclesiology, mission, church planting, evangelism—the church functioning at its best.  I’m interested in questions like: What is the theological basis of the church?  What are the dangers the church faces today theologically given an array of sociological data?  What should new and innovative churches focus on theologically?  What should established churches focus on?  I would love to tease out these themes in the form of a commentary on 1 Corinthians—but I think that is too ambitious.  I have put a list of Eight Important Theological Books to me on my blog.  Update May 3, 2009: I have given you the latest draft of my research topic at: My Th.D. program progress update    

Is the Th.D. a "practical theology" degree? 
No.  "Practical theology" does not have the best reputation everywhere because it has a reputation for being associated with liberal theology and liberation theology in particular—partly because it was Schleiermacher’s idea.  This is not altogether fair—see Practical Theology: An Introduction by Richard Osmer at Princeton Theological Seminary and The Shape of Practical Theology: Empowering Ministry With Theological Praxis by Ray Anderson at Fuller Theological Seminary—both people I like very much.  In evangelical settings, the term may not be related to any of these prior meanings; rather it just means "theological reflection on Christian ministry" or "practical ministry skills."

What do you personally want to do with your Th.D. degree when you finish? 
I want to teach church leadership at a seminary but I might pastor again.  We'll see what kind of offers I get and my wife's dreams—it is her turn next.

If the Th.D. is an academic degree, why is your blog written at a more popular level for church leaders rather than for academics?

First, I want to teach at a seminary and I was a pastor and so I am interested in church leadership issues.  Second, it is a way for me to keep a foot in the practical while I have a foot in the academy.  Third, I am doing my academic work precisely so that I can help others more wisely address ordinary church issues—this is a chance to keep testing that out.  Fourth, I realize that many of my blog entries are long and not easy for everyone to read and thus not as accessible as they could be!  Partly, I write long stuff because I assume some level of theological education.  But the other issue is that everything written on my blog could be written better!  My attitude toward the blog is to "write something—even imperfectly—because if I don't now, I may never return to addressing it and it is something I want to put out there because it might help someone." 

What do you think of the D.Min.? 

I like them.  Pastors usually do a Doctor of Ministry degree part-time while they are doing ministry.  It gives them a chance to reflect, read, and write in a disciplined way with insightful colleagues and advisors.  Yeah!  I think churches should encourage pastors to do the D.Min. work and pay a portion of each class they complete—perhaps 2/3 of the tuition.  It is good for pastors and churches to have reflective pastors. 

Pretty much everyone says that the D.Min. degrees vary in quality—some are easier than others.  Of course that is not unique to D.Min. programs—ask people about MBA programs or law schools and how they vary. 

Duke Divinity School does not offer a D.Min.  I hear people recommending those at Fuller Theological Seminary, Princeton Theological Seminary and Gordon-Conwell Theological Seminary--though there are many other excellent programs. 

The real issue people need to know about the D.Min. is that academic institutions like colleges, universities and seminaries will not see them as an academic doctorate—therefore someone with a D.Min. will not be considered to have a terminal degree—the highest academic qualifications for a position.  For example, a school looking for a preaching professor will put the Ph.D. and Th.D. resumes to the top of the pile whereas the D.Min. applications will be mixed in with the MDiv applications.  This does not mean that they will not end up hiring someone with a D.Min. but they will hire that person for their other credentials—they have written 10 books and pastored a church of 2,000 for 30 years—not because they have a D.Min..  Again, I love D.Min’s and I think people who do them should be compensated for their efforts and praised and encouraged.  But it is understandable that an institution will value a D.Min. differently from a Ph.D./Th.D. which was earned with 3-7 years of full-time study when a D.Min. was earned part-time over three years.  Again, 90% of the time the person with the D.Min. has better ministry skills and pastoral sensibilities than the Ph.D./Th.D. graduate!  But the Ph.D./Th.D. graduate has demonstrated a degree of academic perseverance that the D.Min. person has not (unless they have written a few books).      

What about doing a Ph.D. part-time?

I don't know the answer to this but I will give you some leads. 

See

• Fuller Theological Seminary - Doctor of Philosophy (PhD) in Intercultural Studies (California)
  
• Durham University - PhD - Department of Theology and Religion (UK)
• Regent University - Ph.D. in Organizational Leadership (Virginia) 
• University of Birmingham - PhD - Theology and Religion (UK)
• University of Wales - Lampeter - PhD - Department of Theology and Religious Studies (UK)
• King's College London - PhD - Theology & Religious Studies (UK)
• London School of Theology - PhD - Doctor of Philosophy (UK)
• University of Manchester - PhD - Religions & Theology (UK)
• University of Exeter - PhD - Department of Theology (UK)
• University of Stirling - PhD - School of Languages, Cultures & Religions (UK)

For UK programs see page 92 of Research Assessment Exercise (RAE) 2008: December 2008 (PDF) (ranking 61): Theology, Divinity and Religious Studies.

Someone else wrote me:

London School of Theology has a strong reputation internationally, but isn't as well known here.  They have a relationship with Asbury.  Asbury also has a relationship with University of Manchester / Nazarene Theological Seminary.  The University of Wales - Lampeter has a relationship with Vancouver School of Theology.  All of these allow for part-time PhD studies with one trip overseas.  Of course Durham allows for two trips each year for part-timers . . . By the way Exeter in the UK allows for one trip over per year and usually four months residency over the course of the programme. Birmingham is the same, but "normally" the student is expected to reside in Birmingham for six months.  There might be some flexibility in the six months, but I'm not sure.  Exeter and Birmingham supposedly have reduced costs for split-site students.  So far, I don't think Durham has any reduction in costs, which is surprising - you get the same level of supervision (they say) but you are not using their research facilities.  I'm not sure, but I think the PhD's awarded by the London School of Theology are through Manchester or Brunel.  I would prefer Durham I think, but the costs are significant and there are not many financial aid options for part-timers. 

See also Russ Veldman exploring South African schools. 

For other related posts about the Th.D. program and seminaries, you can try my categories:

Th.D. / Ph.D.

Seminaries

See also my post:

Advice about moving to Durham, North Carolina

Advice on applying for a pastoral position

I received an email from a man in his 40's who is interested in a pastoral position at a church of 85 attendance.  He has done a lot of leadership in Christian organizations but hasn't been a pastor.  Here is my quick response to him this morning.  I did not post his letter to me but in my response I work through the main questions he asked me: (1) approaching the process, (2) salary, and (3) church growth.  He wanted me to post my response in case it might help others.

Dear __________,

First of all, I would not share with the congregational search committee about the setbacks or problems in the churches and parachurch organizations you served unless you are talking about how you positively addressed the situation.  Emphasize ways you contributed that turned out well.  "I noticed this . . . this problem came up . . . and this how I addressed it."  That shows them how you would address problems.  If you talk about "the whole story" about the decline of the organizations you were involved in, that will be discouraging for all and is unnecessary.  I just don't think the details of all those situations matter to the congregation and I think they unnecessarily muddy the waters as this church is different from those past organizations.  I have attached two resumes (one of me and one of my wife) we did a while back.  It demonstrates a bit of how we highlight things we accomplished.  You also want to do this in interviews.  You want to focus on positive accomplishments.  When they ask you a question, say, "Well here is how I addressed something like that in the past . . . " 

Most churches are looking for a good preacher and someone with integrity.  Perhaps you have a tape of a good sermon you've preached or you can do a great one when they ask you to come interview ("candidate"). 

Hopefully you also have a lot of people in your past who can speak to your integrity, honesty, hard work, and compassion--usually three good references--ideally people who were colleagues or in official positions in the church or parachurch organizations you were involved in but you can have someone who was a volunteer leader. 

They want to know that you are a good listener and care about people (like elderly people) and can speak to them with interest, laugh, ask questions and empathize.       

My How to Search for a Christian Ministry Job which I wrote for graduating Christian ministry majors in 2006 might also be helpful as far as the job search.  

I think the Presbyterians are right in talking about the pastor hearing a call to the church (feeling like it is a good fit) and the congregation hearing a call to the pastor (this is the right person God has for us now).  The process should be thought of as "discerning the call"--not "hiring" and "finding a job."  This is your prayer, "God, help this to be a good match for both the congregation and our family." 

Second, on salary, sometimes pastors salaries are thought to be similar to teacher's salaries in the area.  Perhaps that is a place to start.  There are a few surveys out there like the LifeWay Compensation Study: 2008 Southern Baptist Convention Compensation Study.  I don't think you shared what state you are in but I did a calculation for Senior Pastors in Missiouri (a good swing state!) attendance 75-99.  Average compensation: $33,856.  Average pay package: $41,232. 

Do not mention salary until the very end when they have offered you the job and present to you what their offer is.  Of course, don't say "yes" until you have heard what the package is.  My hope is that with home prices as high as you mention, they will pay you ok.  Churches will want to make sure that they are paying you a fair salary.  My bet is that it will be in the ballpark of these averages mentioned above.  You should be thrilled if they are 10K higher.  If they are lower, you are welcome to say, given my three kids and the cost of living in this area, and what is typically paid to pastors of other low-paying denominations like the Southern Baptist Convention in this state, I was thinking $__________.  If they like you, they won't let you go over a difference of 5-8K; they will cough up the money.  But if you mention it early, they will think you are all about money and no one likes that. 

Third and last, as far as vision-casting and church growth, I would be slow about that as I mention in the my post you read: 8 pieces of advice for a new pastor.  Your main jobs will be adequately preaching and leading worship and getting to know everyone's name and the stories of the congregation in the past.  Eventually you will be able to identify the key leaders in the congregation (perhaps 15) and have casual and then gradually more focused conversations about focus and direction.  In general though you should not expect much major change for 5 years!  If you are doing great preaching, you will be able to stay around 75-85 attendance and at least pay to heat the building, a 15 hours per week church secretary, 10 hours of janitorial service, and your salary.  I like David Hansen's book The Art of Pastoring for encouragement about small congregations and getting by.       

May the Lord strengthen and guide you as you seek to serve the church. 

Grace and peace,

andy

--
Andy Rowell
Th.D. Student
Duke Divinity School
Durham, North Carolina
Blog: www.andyrowell.net

How to meet with your supervisor

The problem: You work at a church but you do not meet regularly with your supervisor or your meetings with your supervisor are ineffective. 

A study has shown that liking one's supervisor is the number one factor related to job satisfaction.  You can put up with a lot if you like your immediate supervisor.  Here is the summary quote from the book:

"The talented employee may join a company because of its charismatic leaders, its generous benefits, and its world class training programs, but how long that employee stays and how productive they are while they are there is determined by their relationship with their immediate supervisor" (Marcus Buckingham and Curt Coffman, First Break All the Rules: What the World's Greatest Managers Do Differently. New York: Simon & Schuster, 1999, pp. 11-12). 

If your satisfaction and fruitfulness depend largely on your relationship with your supervisor, it is pretty important that you have good meetings with them. 

Below I have listed two main points about meeting with your supervisor. 

1. Ask to meet with your supervisor for 1 hour once every two weeks or 1/2 hour once per week.  The "open door policy" (My door is always open) isn't concrete enough and either wastes too much time or doesn't provide enough meaningful interaction.  Conscientious followers often don't want to waste the supervisor's time so they wait to ask questions until a problem has grown into a full-blown mess.  Instead set up a time to meet regularly. 

Jim Collins writes,

"If you have the right people on the bus, the problem of how to motivate and manage people largely goes away.  The right people don't need to be tightly managed or fired up; they will be self-motivated by the inner drive to produce the best results and to be part of creating something great" (Jim Collins, Good to Great. New York: HarperCollins, 2001, p. 42).

As a good follower / employee / church leader, you do not need help on every single task, but you do need to be pointed in the right direction.  If you are working 40-50 hours per week, having a 1/2 hour of direction is not too much to ask and makes a lot of sense.      

2. Have a numbered agenda of 5-10 questions that you wish to raise with your supervisor.  Provide the supervisor with a copy when you begin the meeting.  These items should include things you feel the supervisor should know, questions you have related to current projects you are working on, and hopefully something you can affirm your supervisor about.   Save most of your questions for that meeting rather than sending your supervisor a million emails throughout the week.  My supervisor would acknowledge each question and reflect more deeply on the questions he felt were most important or he was able to answer. 

The list of questions emphasizes that you are prepared and that you value the person's time.  It also gives them an idea of the issues that are on your mind.  They need not all be strategic, task-oriented issues.  You can also ask the person questions that are not urgent but are important.  Here's a sample one I remember asking a mentor: "what do you do when you hear that someone from the congregation has died - can you walk me through that?"

Perry Noble, pastor of NewSpring Church, has an excellent post today entitled:My Five Rules For Meeting With A Mentor. My comments above particularly resonate with this quote from Perry's post:

I remember John Maxwell saying to me once, “I will mentor you, but you have to ask the questions. I am not preparing a lesson for you…YOU guide this meeting. If you want to know something–ASK. If you don’t ask anything then we don’t really have anything to talk about.”

Conclusion:

David Swanson notes the importance of meeting with mentors for your own productivity and satisfaction. 

"Those of us who itch for change are faced with the fact that, in most cases, it is the senior leadership’s prerogative to initiate those changes. This can be a frustrating reality for a young leader. Our options are to give up on large-scale change, disconnect from the church to attempt our own new thing, or drink a lot of coffee. Tea works too.

A couple of years into my time as an associate pastor I began scheduling regular breakfasts, afternoon coffee breaks, and evening conversations with some of our church’s Boomer leaders. These conversations were agenda-free. It was a chance to talk about past experiences, current challenges, and future possibilities for our church. The only measure of success was that coffee was consumed and good conversation was had.

Over time, as relationships developed, it became apparent that my ministry ideas were being met with more acceptance. Some of my new ideas even became conversation topics among our older leaders. It was deeply satisfying to participate in a strategic vision for the church that had begun as a conversation over coffee. Don’t underestimate the importance of investing in relationships" (Leadership Journal's blog Out of Ur Disarming the Boomers (Part 2) from January 17, 2008).

As the book title Never Eat Alone implies, relationships are key for getting things done both in the business world and in the church. 

Examples

I have listed a couple of examples below of agendas I made before meeting with mentors and supervisors. 

Example 1: Agenda for meeting with a senior pastor of a neighboring church that I had never met  in 2004.  I had scheduled the meeting to learn from him.

• Where are you from? When did you start pastoring? What did you do before that?
• What do you feel is going well at _________ Church?
• What are the challenges?
• Since we share the same neighborhood, what are the neighborhood issues for you all like parking, etc.?
• How has your seminary experience prepared you for ministry?
• Why the “team leader” title?
• What “direction” is your church moving in?   

Example 2: Here is another example of a weekly meeting from 2002 with my supervisor (which I handed him a copy of)

1. How are you? 
2. Additional agenda items?
3. I am beginning Family Camp planning for next year this week.  Do you have any advice?
4. I received an email from D.T. about his concern about incorporating new people into worship teams.  Comments?
5. We are furthering Ensemble Leaders Song Selection Criteria.  Is that proceeding well in your opinion?
   
6. Family Carol Service.  We are ordering from a script to adapt (19.99-24.99 US) Group Publishing.  Just wanted you to know.   
7. We have received two estimates on IT service maintenance. 
8. I am thankful to G.R. for his major assistance these last few weeks.
9. I tried a new strategy last week for announcements and it seemed to go well.   Input?
10. J.S. is no longer attending our church.  He is attending ________ Church.   
11. Prayer item: I need ________. 
12. K.V. will be back visiting January 22.

My Updated CV / Resume

I had to do a CV for Ph.D. applications.  (See info about that process here). 

By the way, I wholeheartedly believe in posting on the blog things that I have already done and do not involve extra work! (i.e. long email messages I have written to friends, lectures I have prepared, resumes, things I have already read, etc). 

Most professors have their CV posted on their website so I thought I would put mine up as well.  (See for example Fuller Seminary's Ryan Bolger's CV here and here).  You can see the CV below or download the pdf document. 

Download Andrew D. Rowell CV.pdf

I will also let you download the Microsoft Word document version in case that would be helpful for you as a starting place for your own CV.  CV's are typically for academics whereas resumes are for other positions.  By the way, I have put more information about finding a Christian Ministry position here from Feb 2006.      

Download Andrew D. Rowell CV.doc

ANDREW D. ROWELL

Taylor University Department of Bible, Christian Educational Ministries and Philosophy 236 W. Reade Avenue Upland IN 46989-1001

Office: 765.998.4385 Fax: 765.998.4930 Email: anrowell@taylor.edu

CURRENT ACADEMIC EMPLOYMENT                   

Taylor University ž Department of Bible, Christian Educational Ministries and Philosophy ž Upland, IN

Visiting Instructor of Christian Educational Ministries and Biblical Studies (Aug 2005 – August 2007)

Publications             

Rowell, Andrew D. (2007). Review of the book Dissident Discipleship: A Spirituality of Self-Surrender, Love of God, and Love of Neighbor by David Augsburger.  Christian Scholar’s Review 36: 236-239.

Rowell, Andrew D. (2007). Review of the book Off-Road Disciplines: Spiritual Adventures of Missional Leaders by Earl Creps.  Leadership Journal (Winter 2007): 76. 

Rowell, Andy. (2006, April 27). Image Isn’t Everything: the uneasy conscience of a GenX pastor. Leadership Journal’s Out of Ur weblog. Retrieved January 31, 2007, from http://blog.christianitytoday.com/outofur/archives/2006/04/image_isnt_ever.html

Rowell, Andy. (2006, April 30). Image Isn’t Everything 2: depth and transparency offer hope for GenX. Leadership Journal’s Out of Ur weblog. Retrieved January 31, 2007, from http://blog.christianitytoday.com/outofur/archives/2006/04/image_isnt_ever_1.html

Rowell, Andy. (2006, June 13). The President & The Pastor: lessons from George W. Bush’s brave/reckless leadership style. Leadership Journal’s Out of Ur weblog. Retrieved January 31, 2007, from http://blog.christianitytoday.com/outofur/archives/2006/06/the_president_t.html

Rowell, Andy. (2006, June 15). The President & The Pastor (part 2): more lessons from George W. Bush’s brave/reckless leadership style. Leadership Journal’s Out of Ur weblog.  Retrieved January 31, 2007, from http://blog.christianitytoday.com/outofur/archives/2006/06/the_president_t_1.html

Rowell, Andy. (2006). January - December posts. Church Leadership Conversations. Retrieved January 31, 2007, from http://www.andyrowell.net/

EDUCATION                     

Regent College ž Vancouver, BC, Canada

M.Div. (2002)

Gordon-Conwell Theological Seminary ž South Hamilton, MA

6 graduate credits (Summer 1999)

Jerusalem University College ž Jerusalem, Israel

14 graduate credits (Fall 1998)

Taylor University ž Upland, IN

B.A. magna cum laude with triple major in Biblical Studies, Christian Education, and Spanish (1998)

Latin American Studies Program ž San Jose, Costa Rica

17 undergraduate credits (Fall 1996)

Oxford University, Green College ž Oxford, England

4 undergraduate credits (Jan 1996)

TEACHING EXPERIENCE

Department of Biblical Studies, Christian Educational Ministries and Philosophy ž Taylor University ž Upland, IN                                 

·       CEM 351: Teaching and Learning Strategies (Fall 2005)

·       CEM 352: Program and Curriculum (Spring 2006, 2007)

·       CEM 393: Christian Educational Ministries Practicum (Summer 2006, 2007)

·       CEM 493: Christian Educational Ministries Senior Capstone (Jan 2006, 2007)

·       BIB 210: Biblical Literature II (Fall 2006, Spring 2007)

PASTORAL MINISTRY WORK EXPERIENCE         

Granville Chapel ž Vancouver, BC, Canada

Associate Pastor ž Sep 1999 – Jun 2005

Ministry Leadership and Program Development Experience

·       Oversaw weekly Sunday worship planning (average attendance 500) taking into consideration a wide range of worship preferences.  A 2005 congregational survey indicated a high degree of satisfaction among the congregation on all worship-related issues. 

·       Founded Adult Fellowship emerging church-style ministry in 2001 to provide monthly discipleship, worship and fellowship opportunities for singles and couples in their 20’s and 30’s.

·       Facilitated change management in implementing new initiatives such as: coordinating new website team, integrating PowerPoint in worship, forming a team to investigate improved response to the poor of our community, and overseeing the implementation of a new Good Friday service.

·       Participated with the team of Elders in the planning and implementation of a dramatically different interim church government structure to ease the impact of a pastoral transition. 

Teaching and Curriculum Experience

·       Preached and taught regularly during Sunday morning worship, retreats, weddings, baptisms, senior, youth, and young adult events using a wide range of media in communication.  Served as most regular teaching pastor after Senior Pastor’s departure. 

·       Trained members of the congregation to take part in writing Sermon Series Bible Study Guide curriculum.  Oversaw the editing and redesign of that material to reflect best practices in adult educational ministry. 

Counseling, Mentoring and Supervision Experience

·       Oversaw congregational pastoral care crises during Senior Pastor’s four-month sabbatical and after Senior Pastor’s departure through consultation with Elders regarding issues such as terminal illness, abuse, marital infidelity, moral failures in the lives of key ministry leaders, suicide concerns, and congregational responses to political issues.   

·       Oversaw and further developed a small group ministry that had as many as 35 groups and 380 people involved.  This included providing pastoral oversight in crises, and coordinating ongoing training of Small Group Leaders. 

·       Advised, visited and counseled ministry leaders and young adults with ministry, personal, and spiritual issues.

·       Hired and supervised Office Pastoral Assistant, Office Administrator, Worship Intern and Seminarian Intern.

RELATED WORK HISTORY

Pastoral Intern ž Sep 1994 – May 1998 ž Countryside Chapel ž Marion, IN

·        Preached regularly and assisted senior pastor with all worship responsibilities. 

Director of Senior-Freshman Fellowship ž Sep 1997 – May 1998 ž Taylor University ž Upland, IN

·        Worked with a team to found and develop mentoring program for younger university students including fifteen varied events throughout the year.  Taught at events, publicized events, recruited speakers, and mentored a future successful pastor. 

Area Director Intern ž Jun 1997 – Aug 1997 žAssociation of Costa Rican Bible Churches ž Costa Rica

·        Assisted Regional Director with supervisory visitation of pastors for 10 weeks.  Advised pastors who were leading churches struggling with various dilemmas including incest, theological error, and disruptive charismatic behavior.

Research and Teaching Interests            

Practical theology

Ecclesiology

Megachurch models

Emerging and missional church models

The use of Scripture by church leaders

The use of business models by church leaders

The effectiveness of theological education in preparing church leaders

Models of pastoral leadership throughout church history: Richard Baxter, George Herbert and Eugene Peterson

The theology of Dietrich Bonhoeffer

REFEREES   

Dr. Faye E. Chechowich 

Dean of Faculty Development and Professor of Christian Educational Ministries, Taylor University, Upland, IN

Dr. Gordon D. Fee 

Professor Emeritus of New Testament Studies, Regent College, Vancouver, BC 

Dr. W. Ward Gasque 

Adjunct Professor, Fuller Theological Seminary, Pasadena, CA

Dr. Larry R. Helyer 

Professor of Biblical Studies, Taylor University, Upland, IN

Prof. Darrell W. Johnson

Associate Professor of Pastoral Theology, Regent College, Vancouver, BC 

Dr. Robert Lay 

Professor of Christian Educational Ministries, Taylor University, Upland, IN

Rev. Tim MacIntosh

Senior Pastor, Bethany Baptist Church, Richmond, BC

How to Search for a Christian Ministry Job

This is a letter that I wrote to senior Christian Educational Ministries majors and minors at Taylor University but I think it is applicable to almost anyone searching for a Christian ministry position.

Dear Senior Christian Educational Ministries Capstone Folks and some other CE Senior Minors in my classes,

I have been talking with a number of you and told you that I would email you a list of job-search websites. I have listed them at the bottom of this email. I think ChurchStaffing.com, Willow Creek Association's Exchange, and Youth Specialties's Job Bank are the most important. Here is what they are useful for: they give you an idea of the kind of positions that are out there.

Why Ministry Job Search Websites are Mostly Useless:

But I have got to tell you: hardly anyone gets a job by getting a position listed on an internet job site. I can hardly think of anyone that has actually gotten a position that way. (I have married two couples who met on the internet. I think that it is more likely to find a spouse than a job by searching on the internet). Before JR Kerr was hired, the teaching pastor position at North Way was listed for a long time at ChurchStaffing.com . . . but that is not how JR got the job. Someone on staff at North Way had met him and invited him to come down and meet with the senior pastor and just talk and see if there might be a fit . . . and there was.

So I have written more below about a better way to search for a ministry position.

How employers actually look for people to hire:

As Richard Bolles says in What Color is Your Parachute, most employers search for people in the following way. (I'm paraphrasing from memory here. Bolles actually gives the statistics). First, people hiring look at the people who are already part of the organization and see if any of them could fill the position. In the church, they look at volunteers from the church or someone who is working in another position in the church who might be reassigned. Second, they think of other people they know (in other churches, parachurch organizations, friends, relatives, acquaintances, etc.) Third, they ask trusted friends if they know of anyone who would be good. Fourth, they will post the position internally. They will post the position description in the bulletin and maybe on their website. Fifth, they will post the position opening more broadly. They may post it on Youth Specialties, ChurchStaffing.com, Willow Creek Association, a denominational site, Taylor's Career Development office, a local Christian newspaper or email Taylor CE profs. Sixth (and almost never for ministry ads), they may post the position in the newspaper want-ads.

How to find out about good positions:

The point is that if you wait for positions to be posted publicly on the internet or in the newspaper, a lot of the good ones will be already gone! But if you call someone in the church leadership and tell them about what you are interested in and ask them if they can give you any advice, you may be one of the first people who gets considered. People cannot resist being asked for advice. We all feel honored to give advice! The person you ask may have just been to a pastor's prayer meeting and hear that First Baptist down the street is looking for a Youth Pastor. Pray for God to be moving ahead of your phone call or email!

So, I would encourage you to contact churches and especially people that you respect and like. Probably if you like them, you will probably like the ministry positions they know about. If they are megachurch, they will know of other megachurch positions. If they are emerging church, they will know of other emerging positions. If they are a great youth pastor, they will know the other great youth pastors in the area. Just tell them what you are looking for and ask them if they have any advice for you and ask them if there is anyone else they recommend talking to.

Better than talking on the phone with them is meeting with them in person. They will see how charming you are and seeing you in person will inspire them to really think how they can help you! Email them or phone them and say this: "From all I hear about you, I feel like I could really learn a lot from you. Is there any way I could drive to where you work and take you out to lunch or to Starbucks someday and hear about what it is like to do ministry to youth in the inner-city? I think that is what I'm interested in and I would love to just get any advice you can give me. I'm a senior so I'm thinking about what I want to do next. If that's not possible to meet with you, is there a good time I could call you?"

Tell your relatives, friends in the area you are interested in, your home church pastor, pastor at Taylor, cousins, other students . . . everyone and let them know what you are looking for. "I'm interested in doing college ministry in a church, do you know of any positions open like that? Or do you know any really cool people that do college ministry in a church who I could ask for advice?" This will help you get leads and in the process you will learn what you are really interested in and what you're not interested in. For example, Cousin Billy will tell you he has a college ministry position open at his church in Arizona and after some soul-searching you may realize that Arizona is too far away from your jr-at-Taylor-fiance.

I think in the end, if you work hard like this, you will probably get a few options to choose from and you will probably make a better decision rather than just taking the first job that comes along.

The most important thing to look for:

I really think the most important thing is for you to be under an immediate supervisor who you admire and have respect for their ministry skills. If you spend time with them and realize that they don't seem to know what they are doing, are a terrible speaker, are not very relational, etc. but you are still tempted to go there because the position looks cool, I would think twice before going there. You want to think: "This is really someone I could learn from." Not that they are necessarily going to be your special mentor / guru / father figure, but for most people your immediate supervisor makes the difference between ministry being miserable or a joy. If you have a supervisor who believes in you and is wise in ministry, you can get through the learning curves and stresses of ministry.

Know what you are looking for but also keep an open mind:

It is good to try to articulate what you are really interested in - for example, leading worship and working with sr. high students, etc. If you just say, "I'm looking for a job" they won't remember you when a youth pastor / worship leader position comes up. But if you tell them specificallly what you are interested in, they will remember you! But also be a little open-minded and flexible about what you might enjoy doing. My wife Amy thought she wanted to do women's ministry but ended up loving children's ministry because essentially she ended up encouraging, praying for, counseling, nurturing, equipping and empowering volunteers - much like she had hoped to do in women's ministry.

How to find out what you are interested in:

If you are not sure what you want to do, ask permission to shadow someone for a day or most of a day. I give you permission to skip a day of classes to do it (or do it on a Sunday)! Again, the person you shadow will get to know you a bit and will probably be able to think of some other leads for you to check out. After that day, you will probably be able to say: I totally want to do do what that guy does. Or, I think I'd like to shadow someone from children's ministry and see if I like that a bit better.

Don't get stereotyped as a secretary:

I would not encourage you to take an "administrative assistant" position. Some of you are good at administration and like it but that doesn't mean you need "administration" in your title. You will do administration in every position (answer email, return calls, organize events, etc.) but a secretary position means that you need to sit at your desk and answer the phone no matter what. For example, if someone in the youth group comes in to your office crying, you want to be able to spend time with them and care for them. If you are in a secretarial position, that is not your job. They will be ok with it once but will be unhappy if that is a pattern. If you are in a ministry position, you will be expected to care for people! Make sure you take a ministry position because you will learn more and you are trained for that! I had a Taylor CE grad friend who took a youth pastor secretary position and the people always looked at her that way even though she could have done a better job than the youth pastor!

Accepting the job:

When you are "candidating" (visiting a church and talking to the church about working there) and negotiating a contract, feel free to talk to me or Phil Collins or another ministry person you respect from another church, to get advice. I think it is good for you to be paid something - hopefully enough to live on (especially if they are asking you to work full-time). Volunteering at a ministry and working a "regular job" elsewhere is ok but you will get a lot more attention and responsibility if the church is paying you and I think you will learn more this way. But I don't think you need to be paid big bucks in your first position. Learn now, earn later.

Let me know if you have more questions.

May the Lord guide each of you into the right position where you can learn, grow spiritually, be fulfilled, work hard and make a difference.

andy

A couple of sites for looking up sample salaries:

• ELCA Youth Ministry Network Salary Survey - You need to get a free login.
• 2006 Leadership Network Salary and Economic Outlook Report - Again you have to get a free login.  This is larger churches so the salaries tend to be higher. 
• You can also buy a book which gives you information about this.  The 2007 Compensation Handbook for Church Staff It is $29.95 or you can download just the section you are interested in for $9.95.
• Many denominations post salary guidelines.  If you find more, list them in the comments. 

Some Ministry Job Search Websites

Christiancareercenter.com
christian-careers.com
ChristianJobs.com
Christianitytoday.com
Churchjobs.net
Churchjobsonline.com
ChurchStaffing.com
Kingdomcareers.com
ministryjobs.com
ministrysearch.com
pastorsearch.net

Bethel Seminary Placement Index
Fuller Theological Seminary - Career Services
Gordon Conwell's MinistryList.com

American Baptist Home Mission American Baptist Personnel
Evangelical Covenant Church Seeking Staff
Evangelical Presybyterian Church Opportunity List
Presbyterian Church USA Opportunity List
Willow Creek Association — The Exchange
Willow Creek Community Church Employment Opportunities

Youth Specialties Job Bank
YouthPastor.com

What can I do with a major or minor in Christian Educational Ministries at Taylor University?

Taylor students (and their parents) often ask: what can I do with a minor or major in Christian Educational Ministries? This is the handout we give them. See below.

To learn more about what courses make up a Christian Educational Ministries major or minor, click here.

If you want to know how to find a Ministry position, see my post about that here. 

If you're curious, I taught two sections of "Teaching and Learning Strategies," two sections of "Program and Curriculum Development" and the "Senior Capstone" course this year. See my earlier posts about the sites we visited in Philadelphia and Pittsburgh and relevant books and articles on ministry in Philadelphia .

My wife Amy has taught three sections of "Personal Foundations for Ministry" and a course entitled "Ministry By Women in the Contemporary Context."

Amy and I are both majored in Christian Educational Ministries at Taylor University and graduated in 1998.

Opportunities for Christian Educational Ministries Majors and Minors

Church (From small to megachurch) – Pastor, Youth Pastor, Associate Pastor, Christian Education Director. Pastor of specialized ministry: children, youth, Jr. high, Sr. high, student ministries, family ministries, college ministry, young adults, next generation, singles, men’s, women’s, adult ministries, pastoral care, worship arts, outreach, missions, evangelism, discipleship, spiritual formation, special needs, small groups, recreational ministries, administration, executive pastor, church planter, etc.

Para Church –Youth For Christ, Young Life, InterVarsity, Campus Crusade, Navigators, etc.

Missions – trainer, linguist, church planter, discipler, evangelist, curriculum developer, house parent, teacher, community development, student mobilizer, short term missions leader, rehabilitation.

Inner City – church planter, youth center director, ministry with youth, community development worker, recreation director, house parent.

Christian Camping – conference, wilderness, director, assistant director, retreat center director

Christian College – resident hall director, student development leader, professor of Christian education, student ministry director, practicum supervisor.

Writing – Sunday school/children, youth, adult curriculum, books, magazine editor, book editor.

Christian high school – Bible teacher, director of missions, coach.

Chaplain – hospital, military

Media Specialist – film, music, video, communications.

Training for some of these positions could be further supplemented by taking courses outside of the Christian Educational Ministries department (Accounting, Biblical Literature, Church Music, Communication – New Media, Early Childhood Education, English Writing, Intercultural Studies / Missions, International Business, International Studies, Management, Physical Education, Psychology, Social Work, or Sociology).