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  • I am a Doctor of Theology (Th.D.) student at Duke Divinity School. My areas of concentration are "The Practice of Leading Christian Communities and Institutions" and "New Testament."

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Rob Bell

December 17, 2007

Rob Bell: three things to appreciate and three reasons he is controversial

Many people ask me what I think of Rob Bell.  They want to know why he is all the rage and they also want to know why some people are concerned about him.  There is a short article about Rob Bell in Time magazine this week: The Hipper-Than-Thou Pastor by David Van Biema so I thought I would give people a small primer on Bell.  I visited Bell's church this summer and have listened to many of his sermons online.  Bell is the pastor of Mars Hill Bible Church in Grandville, Michigan, near Grand Rapids.  He is the main teacher on the Nooma 12-minute videos.  He is also the author of the following two books:


I'll name three things to appreciate about Bell and three reasons why he is controversial.  I hope, if you like him, you will be more aware of why some people are concerned.  I also hope, if you don't like him, you will better understand why some people do. 

Three things to like about Bell:

1.  He is passionate about Scripture.  He is famous for starting his church by teaching a series through Leviticus to show the relevance of the Bible including Leviticus.  Bell works hard at understanding the historical context of a text of Scripture each time he preaches. 

I have placed below the first couple paragraphs of his article Leadership Journal article:
"Life in Leviticus: Planting this church, I spent a year preaching through Leviticus, and (surprise!) it worked." (January 1, 2002).   I think they demonstrate his heart toward Scripture.  He loves Scripture and I think even those who don't like him should see that as one of his strengths. 

In February 1999 we planted a church to reach the unchurched and disillusioned people of Grand Rapids, Michigan. For the first year, I preached through Leviticus—verse by verse.
    * Menstrual blood.
    * Hold the pork.
    * Avoid road kill.
Why start a church with Leviticus? Why not a series on relationships or finding peace? That would be the safer approach.
Leviticus cannot be tamed. Its imagery is too wild. We ventured into its lair and let it devour us, trusting that God would deliver us with a truer picture of his Son.
Why Leviticus? Two reasons.
First, I didn't want the church to succeed because we put together the right resources. I wanted the church to flourish on the power of the Spirit alone.
I knew opening with Leviticus—foreign words to today's culture—was risky. But the bigger the risk, the more need for the Spirit and the more glory for God to get.
Second, unchurched people often perceive the Bible as obsolete. If that crowd could discover God speaking to them through Old Testament law, it would radically change their perception that Christianity is archaic. I wanted people to know that the whole biblical story—even Leviticus—is alive.
The Scriptures are a true story, rooted in historical events and actual people. But many people don't see the connection between the Moses part and the Jesus part.
But Moses' Leviticus is all about Jesus.
Every message in my series ended with Jesus. Every picture is about Jesus. Every detail of every sacrifice ultimately reflects some detail of Jesus' life.


2. Bell speaks in the language of young people.  Bell's preaching is informal, and "cool."  He has an eye for illustrations and is a great story teller.  In a 2004 interview with Leadership Journal entitled The Subversive Art (which you can read in its entirety online for free), he explains his style.  "So my understanding in communication is you engage people right where they are; if you don't, they leave."  You can (pay to) download the transcript of his "The Goat Has Left the Building" sermon at Preaching Today mentioned in the Time article.  But better is to watch a clip from his Nooma films (12 minutes each).  Here is the flash clip from the first one mentioned in the time article: 001 "Rain" Clip.   Or download and listen to a sermon at the Mars Hill Bible Church website or iTunes Mars Hill Bible Church (this iTunes link only works if you have the free program iTunes installed on your computer).  The point is that, even if you don't like him, one should be able to acknowledge that it is a good thing that he is trying to teach the Bible to young people in language that they understand.  None would dispute that as a strength.  I think people can appreciate the fact that he uses object lessons to try to convey his points.  Jesus did the same thing.  There is nothing wrong with that in itself.   Chad Hall echoes these comments about Bell's communication skills in a recent November 2007 Leadership Journal newsletter, What Leaders Can Learn from Rob Bell

3.  Bell is trying to live what he preaches.  At considerable sacrifice, which Bell rarely talks about, he and his family have moved into an urban area and are trying to care for their poor neighbors.  A couple of months ago, I listened to one of this sermons online.  Before he began his sermon, an alcoholic member of the congregation caught his eye and motioned to him.  He invited the man up to share his joy at celebrating his fifth year anniversary of being sober.  Bell for about two minutes interviewed and celebrated with him.  It was a spontaneous and beautiful moment.   Again, I think, even if you don't like him, you should be able to appreciate his heart to care for people and see people find forgiveness and healing.

Three things that make Bell controversial:
1. Bell has a heart for social justice.  This may make you concerned that he is not serious about people's souls.  Some churches tend to speak about saving the earth from global warming and never about saving people who are far from God.  I don't think Bell is guilty of this but I understand that talk about social justice makes some evangelicals concerned that his priorities aren't right.   
2.  Bell does not use that much systematic theology vocabulary.  In the effort to speak people's language, he is careful about using big systematic theological jargon, i.e. words like sanctification, apocalyptic, and omniscient.  He will use them sometimes but when he does, he explains them so people understand what he is talking about.  He assumes as Haddon Robinson taught me in his Biblical Preaching book, that the preacher should treat people as if they have "high intelligence but small vocabularies."  In other words, preachers shouldn't be afraid of showing people the nuances of an argument but they should explain it in everyday language.  I often think of the virtue of using USA Today - 8th grade reading level - language.  So, because Bell doesn't use the regular systematic theology terms, that especially people in the Reformed tradition are accustomed to using (especially in Grand Rapids where lots of people are Reformed), Bell is more "difficult to pin down" theologically.  If you use standard theological vocabulary all of the time, it is easier for other theologians to quickly detect your theological convictions.  But if you tell a story instead, it is not so simple.  (Try distilling some of Jesus' parables into doctrines of systematic theology).  Bell's purpose though is to speak to young people and unchurched people not explain his beliefs to theologians.  He wants to teach and inspire people.  He wants people to think about theological concepts in fresh ways.  He wants to capture people's attention.  To do this, he tries not to use Christianese (Christian jargon).  Thus, those who would want to put him on trial for heresy, need to pay attention to what he is saying, including the stories and illustrations, to detect whether he is orthodox in his theology or not.  I think he is orthodox but I agree that it is not always easy to tell where he stands.  People who are suspicious about him are concerned about his views on systematic theology issues like: inerrancy of Scripture (Bell would probably say infallible or authoritative but he would squirm under the fact that none of these words are in the Scriptures themselves); substitutionary atonement; eternal conscious torment; and propositional truth.  Bell and other emerging church people (though he denies that label), and many other thoughtful evangelicals would want say that though all of these issues are very important, none of these systematic theology concepts are easy to define.  Thus we need to talk about them, argue about them, teach them, and see what the Scriptures say about them.  Bell tries to do that but for some people this is scary.  They accept Wayne Grudem's conclusions in his Systematic Theology or Millard Erickson's conclusions in his Christian Theology and feel it is dangerous to question them. But doctrines, to remain alive, need to continue to be taught and wrestled with by younger generations.   Bell wants to do that.  Some of this disagreement about defining doctrines clearly in systematic theological language can also be attributed to differences between Systematic Theologians and Biblical Studies scholars.  Systematic Theologians are quicker to put into propositional summaries Christian doctrine whereas Biblical Studies scholars typically are less comfortable about taking verses out of context and are more hesitant to about using terms and categories from philosophy.  This would also be true, I think, even among very conservative Biblical Studies professors.  They are more interested in explaining particular verses, chapters, books and themes in Scripture.  They are particularly aware that the Scriptures do not come to us in the form of Systematic Theology.  Bell would be on the side of the Biblical Studies people.         
3.  Bell is pretty independent. Bell's church was founded by him and has a board of elders (I think) but in practice he has a lot of power.  Now, within American evangelicalism, that is pretty common.  Church historian David Bebbington writes, “By 1961 only 38 percent of American Protestants belonged to mainline churches . . . [in contrast,] In Britain . . . the great majority of evangelicals were in denominations with long pedigrees. David Bebbington, “British and American Evangelicalism Since 1940,” in Evangelicalism: Comparative Studies of Popular Protestantism in North America, the British Isles, and Beyond, 1700-1990 (ed. Mark A. Noll, David W. Bebbington and George A. Rawlyk; New York: Oxford University Press, 1994), 371. But of course, being independent, leaves him vulnerable to all sorts of issues.  Who will set him straight if he goes off track?  Who is he accountable to?  Some of his critics are in denominations like the Presbyterian Church of America. But many of his critics are independent Baptists or independent fundamentalists whose local churches are also almost totally independent.  Denominations have some checks and balances that nondenominational churches don't have.  They also have bureaucracies that might have prevented something like Bell's founding of Mars Hill Bible Church.  There are also a number of conservative evangelical churches that are also independent from a denomination, for example, Mark Driscoll's Mars Hill Church (Seattle - no relation to Rob Bell's Mars Hill Bible Church in Michigan) and John MacArthur's Grace Community Church (Calif).  (I am happy to be corrected if any of these are part of a denomination but I looked on their websites and couldn't find any reference to a connection.  To be fair, they all have constitutions and bylaws and informal connections with other churches, as Bell does, which provide some accountability).  One final comment which is related to this issue of accountability: pastors like Bell and the other pastors I have just named, who are passionate and outspoken about their views and have a loyal following can be very annoying if you disagree with them.  In other words, it is not that annoying if someone is boring and they say something that you feel is slightly off.  But if they say it with pizzazz and the audience is cheering, then that can be annoying.  John Piper and Rob Bell can both make young audiences cheer because they speak with passion and thoughtfulness but they also make people cringe who disagree with them because they speak so passionately.

All of that to say, if you haven't listened to Bell, at least now you know what all the fuss is about.  If you don't like him, there are lots of other great preachers to listen to.  See my lists:


Grace and peace,

andy

Additional notes:

  • The Wikipedia encyclopedia-that-anyone-can-edit article on "Rob Bell" seems to me fair, accurate and helpful (thought it could always change by the time you read it).  As I was reading it, I realized that my background is quite similar to Bell's.  This may be one reason I am interested in him and feel like I understand where he is coming from.  I am learning in my studies that "social location" tends to shape our perspectives on issues!  Bell went to Wheaton College.  Wheaton is my hometown and I went to Taylor University which is much like Wheaton College.  We both went to Honey Rock Camp.  He went to Fuller Seminary for his MDiv.  I did my MDiv at Regent College, which has quite a bit in common theologically with Fuller.  I am about five years younger than him.  In other words, it should not be surprising that I understand where he is coming from and I can see how someone 30 years older or from a different theological tradition might be more concerned with him.  To me, he seems a lot like me and my friends.  Hence, I want to see the good in him and I am not threatened by his edginess.      
  • Ben Witherington, professor of New Testament at Asbury Seminary, who is quoted in the article, posts about the article and fields some questions about Bell in the comments.  He has also addressed questions about Bell in the past.  He is generally very positive about him. 
  • Andrew Jones, the influential emerging church blogger from the UK, also mentions the article.  He says that the emerging churches he (Jones) is trying to plant in the UK are small and without paid staff.   They are thus a bit different than Bell's. 

February 16, 2007

Ben Witherington on Rob Bell

If you are a Rob Bell fan, this is must reading.

Update February 26, 2007

Witherington has now reviewed all of Bell's videos.  He thoroughly appreciates all of them.  He questions a couple of his Jewish rabbi comments but still thinks they are outstanding. 

Rob Bell's Nooma Videos 11-15

Rob Bell's Nooma Videos 6-10

Rob Bell's Nooma Videos 1-5

 

Update February 18, 2007

Ben Witherington has written a more comprehensive and gracious appreciation and critique of Rob Bell at "Velvet Elvis and the King"-- Has he Left the Building?   Read it.  He encourages Bell to consult the standard commentaries and to ignore some fringe scholars who would liken Jesus to a third century AD Jewish Rabbi.   

Original Post:Witherington

Ben Witherington has posted his assessment of Rob Bell's presentation last night in Lexington: Rob Bell hits Lexington and a Packed-Out House.  Ben is a professor of New Testament at Asbury Seminary and a prolific commentary writer.  Rob is the most downloaded preacher on the internet (perhaps behind Joel Osteen) and pastor of Mars Hill Bible Church in Grandville, MI.Rob_bell   (See ITunes "Religion and Spirituality" category - Bell's ITunes podcast link is here).

Witherington praises Bell's style but critiques his substance saying that Bell doesn't know the difference between 3rd century AD Rabbinic judaism and Jesus' context and he critiques Bell for waffling on homosexuality.  I guarantee that this post will be the hottest one in the Christian blogosphere today and this week. 

I commented saying that I don't know how Bell puts together his creative, brilliant presentations each week.  With his influence, he should speak a little less and research a bit more.  (By the way I love listening to Bell).  I also say that perhaps Bell was addressing pastoral responses rather than actually stating his doctrinal position.  Brian McLaren took some heat for this a while back on the Out of Ur Leadership journal blog.          

I also mentioned that Bell was the most downloaded preacher on the internet.  Those statistics change regularly though.  See the iTunes Religion & Spirituality podcast page for the latest rankings.  Like other iTunes store links, that link will only work if you have iTunes (which is free to download and install on your computer) installed on your computer.

October 10, 2006

Best Podcasts for Church Leaders

Here are the best podcasts for church leaders that I have found. 

The ITunes links will only work if you have the free ITunes software installed on your computer.  See below for more directions.  I have also put the MP3 location for each link in case you don't want to bother with ITunes. 

Catalyst Podcast (ITunes): MP3 location.  The Catalyst Conference was this past weekend.  It is this cool conference for pastors under 40.  See my preview of it here.  There are good interviews with Rob Bell, Erwin McManus, Andy Stanley, Eugene Peterson, and Donald Miller.

Defining Moments Podcast (ITunes): MP3 location. These are samples of the Willow Creek Association Defining Moments audio CD's.  They are good 10 minute interviews but really leave you wanting more.  And that is the point.  They want your church to become part of the WCA and then the pastor will get the full CD's.   

Emergent Podcast (ITunes): MP3 location.  The Emergent Village is the main organization of the Emerging Church movement.  These podcasts are usually just plain good theological discussion.  You will enjoy them even if you aren't "emerging."  The first seven are with Yale theologian Miroslav Volf. 

Mars Hill Bible Church (ITunes): MP3 location.  Rob Bell, of the NOOMA DVDs, Velvet Elvis author and author of spring 2007 book Sex God, has more people download his sermons than anyone. 

Mosaic (ITunes): MP3 location. Erwin McManus, author of The Barbarian Way, and numerous other books, and pastor of Mosaic in LA. 

MPPC Sermon-Cast (ITunes): MP3 location.  John Ortberg, pastor of Menlo Park Presbyterian Church, and author of The Life You've Always Wanted and other books, is an outstanding teacher. 

North Point Ministries: Life Rules (ITunes): MP3 location.  This is a series on relating with one another.  This is with Andy Stanley, pastor of the #3 influential church in the nation according thechurchreport.com and author of the new book Communicating for a Change: Seven Keys to Irresistible Communication. North Point only podcasts their most recent sermon series. 

Practically Speaking (ITunes): MP3 location.  This is a series for church leaders based on the Seven Practices of Effective Ministry by Andy Stanley and friends. 

Covenant Worldwide of Covenant Theological Seminary has thirteen classes that are podcast.  They actually have many more for free at their website here. Below are the ITunes links. 

  1. Old Testament History with V. Phillips Long (now at Regent College).
  2. Biblical Theology with Gerard Van Groningen.
  3. Life & Teachings of Jesus with Daniel Doriani.
  4. Life & Letters of Paul with Hans Bayer. 
  5. Ancient & Medieval Church History with David Calhoun.
  6. Reformation & Modern Church History with David Calhoun. 
  7. Calvin's Institutes with David Calhoun.   
  8. Christian Ethics with David Jones. 
  9. Apologetics & Outreach with Jerram Barrs.
  10. Youth Ministry with Mark Davis. 
  11. God and His Word with Michael Williams. 
  12. Humanity, Christ and Redemption with Robert Peterson. 
  13. Spirit, Church & Last Things with Robert Peterson.

See also my post about the best audio on the internet which is my most popular post. 

Other ITunes podcast links:

The below ITune links either aren't as strong as the ones above or are not directly related to church leadership.  But I thought I would place them anyway for your to see what is available and what I'm listening to.  The links below will only work if you have ITunes installed on your computer.  If you don't, I'm sure these MP3's are available but you will probably have to google them.  I don't want to take the time to find them right now. 

NYT Op-Ed Podcast (New York Times and other NYT is good.)
NPR (Anything at NPR.org or podcast is good. National Public Radio)
Moyers on America (PBS)
Nature (Science journal)
Science Talk: The podcast of Scientific American (Science journal)
Relevant Podcast (Relevant Magazine for Christians in 20's)
Jesus Asked (Book by Conrad Gempf; Zondervan, 2003. Read by the author in 15 minute segments.  "In the Gospels, when people asked Jesus a question, he often replied with one of his own. This book looks at the questions Jesus asked and how they can enrich our understanding and faith.")
PeterKreeft.com (Christian Catholic philosopher)
wiredparish.com (interview with Rob Bell is pretty good)
Willow Creek podcasts (not much there right now except a few random sermons)
Leadership Network  See my posts about listening to these video venue audio segments here.
Grammar Girl's Quick and Dirty Tips for Better Writing
Gordon-Conwell Chapel
Donald Miller a few posts from a while ago
BusinessWeek - Climbing the Ladder
Christian Audio podcast - Devotional Classics
Duke Chapel Podcast including Richard Hays and Walter Brueggemann
USA Today's Pop Candy - on pop culture

Here are some basic instructions to get you started using ITunes for podcasts. Itunes

Basically, you download ITunes here.  It is free.  I would recommend doing it.  You might as well learn what people are talking about and it is free and convenient to have ITunes download your MP3's for you. 

Basically, ITunes like Internet Explorer doesn't work unless you are connected to the internet. When you open ITunes and see the ITunes store, go to the right side of the page under "Quick Links" and click "Power Search."   On the next screen, click "Podcasts" which is on the right side of the page.  Under Title, put "Mars Hill Bible Church" and then click "Search."  You will have found the podcast for Rob Bell's church.  Click on Mars Hill Bible Church.  Then you can see the main page for the podcast.  At the bottom, all of the episodes are available.  If they are not in the right order, click on "Release Date" to have them organized from most recent to least recent.  You can either "Subscribe" at the top so that you get each new sermon as it is posted on the net each week or you can just click "Get episode" and download the past sermons that you want. 

You can click on "Podcasts" under Library on the left side of your screen.  This will show you all the podcasts which you have downloaded and subscribe to.  Right in front of the title of the podcast you have downloaded is a little triangle pointing right or down.  If it is pointing down, you can see all the details of what episodes you have downloaded.  If it is pointing right, the details are hidden.  When you click on the name of the podcast, it is highlighted and a little arrow appears to the right of the title.  You can click on this arrow to go to the ITunes home page for that podcast.  You right click on the icon of the podcast on its ITunes home page to get its ITunes link (url). 

If you want to get back to searching for more podcasts, just click on the left side of your screen where it says "ITunes store."  In the ITunes store, you can always click back to the ITunes front page by clicking the little house at the top of your screen. 

The podcasts you download are audio computer files called MP3's.  Podcasts are generally free.  You can also download audio books or songs but you have to pay for them. 

Unlike the Apple song files, you can play the podcast MP3's on any computer and MP3 player. You can also burn them on CD's and play them on some CD and DVD players. 

For convenience, you might want to be able to access your ITunes MP3's without ITunes.  Here is the default location where podcasts are downloaded to your computer:

C:\Documents and Settings\yourusername\My Documents\My Music\iTunes\iTunes Music\Podcasts

If you want to make a shortcut, go to My Documents, My Music, ITunes, ITunes Music, Podcasts.  Then right click and click Create Shortcut.  Cut that Shortcut folder and paste it on your desktop. 

You can grab the MP3's there if you want to transfer them to your MP3 player or a CD.  I

You can double click the photo on this post to get a bigger photo of what my ITunes looks like. 

July 30, 2006

How do we deal with pastors using pornography?

I wanted to provide some resources for church leaders having trouble with porn themselves and for church leaders who must discipline and restore people who are using pornography.  542620_10522446_1



Six crucial truths about pastors and pornography:



1. Churches should get prepared for the fact that they will likely need to figure out ways of helping and disciplining church leaders who are involved with pornography. 



Young pastors are very aware of this.  I heard a
podcast (available here) last night by Catalyst Conferences - the cool "young church leader" conference (which I have not yet attended).  They were interviewing Blue Like Jazz author Donald Miller who said as an aside that he does not have internet access at home but rather uses the internet at coffee shops because he wants to stay away from the temptation on internet porn.  They then mentioned that Catalyst had handed out thousands of XXXchurch internet accountability software at last year's conference.  Rob Bell's church also had the people of XXXchurch come and speak.  Read about that here. 



I recommend the following recent Leadership Journal article for a broad overview of the issues involved in trying to deal with these situations. 

Restoring Fallen Pastors: The road back to ministry after a moral lapse—whether physical or virtual—is long and difficult. How can the restoration process be improved?

by Eric Reed

Leadership Journal, Winter 2006   

Sorry, you have to pay to view it now.  I viewed it on July 23, 2006 for free.  The next day it was gone to archives.

2. Any moral lapses like addiction to pornography have enormous costs to the pastor, his wife, children, dreams, and to the church. 



See Leadership Journal's classic three articles on pastors struggling with porn:

The War Within The anatomy of lust.  (This article generated more interest than any article in Leadership Journal's history). 

The War Within Continues An update on a Christian leader's struggle with lust.

Battle Strategy Practical advice for avoiding needless scars.

3.  As church leaders involved in restoration and discipline we must think throught these issues carefully. 



Eric Reed's article suggested that an elder board must answer the following questions when a pornography problem has been uncovered or confessed.  I think they are excellent and could serve as the agenda for a meeting.   

  1. Which offenses require absence from ministry?
  2. Is exposure to pornography an equally serious offense as an actual sexual affair?
  3. How long is the pastor to be out of ministry?
  4. What are the requirements for counseling and who will oversee it?
  5. Will there be any financial support for the pastor and family?
  6. Will the pastor's spouse be included in counseling and in meetings with the denomination or restoration team?
  7. After the restoration process, how will the pastor find a new position?
  8. And what will the new congregation be told about his season on the sidelines?

Eric Reed also points out that the Assemblies of God have already done some good work on this issue.

"The denomination has identified five stages of porn use, each with its own required restoration process.

  1. curiosity: requires three months professional counseling.
  2. experimental: requires six months professional counseling.
  3. regular: requires one year professional counseling and a three-month suspension of credentials.
  4. habitual: requires one year professional counseling and a six-month suspension of credentials.
  5. addictive: requires two years of professional counseling.

4. Though this is not exclusively a male problem, it is definitely a predominantly male problem. 

Dan Allender said in a lecture at Taylor University that men struggle with pornography at the rate of 20 to 1 over women.  One of his lectures at Taylor is available here. 

5. People who blog are probably more susceptible to the temptation of pornography because of their exposure to the internet and because they blog after their spouse has gone to bed!



6. There is a growing group of resources that provide help. 

Here are a few links that are a good starting place for the problem of pornography. 

Reputable organizations and their resources:

- Focus on the Family's Clearing House for Pornography Information

- Pure Intimacy - one of Focus on the Family's sites on pornography

- Promise Keepers - see Promise 3 and the resources they recommend. 

- New Life Ministries - the ministry of Every's Man's Battle series of books

- XXX Church - a reputable ministry regarding pornography

Internet Filtering Software including filtering for things beyond porn including sites on drugs, violence, etc. if you are interested.   

- Consumer Reports on Internet Filtering Software

- PC Mag's Report on Parental Control Security Software

Both of these reputable journals recommend: SafeEyes which is about $50 per year.

Promise Keepers have two resources that they recommend:

- Promise Keepers Recommend Internet Filtering Software - pkfamily.com which is an Internet Service Provider

- Eye Promise Accountability Software from Promise Keepers.  This is associated with Covenant Eyes, which is a very reputable tool.  Basically, a friend of your choice receives a record of all the internet usage from your computer each week.  The internet is not filtered. 

April 06, 2006

Andy Stanley Says There is No Such Thing as Distinctively Spiritual Leadership

Here are my comments on the article: Is Ministry Leadership Different? Andy Stanley and Jim Collins in an unexpected point-counterpoint by Eric Reed at Leadership Journal's Out of Ur blog:

Andy Stanley, pastor of the third most influential church in the nation with more than 18,000 in attendance, is right in urging pastors to practice competent leadership regardless of its source. He says: “I grew up in a culture where everything was overly spiritualized . . . A principle is a principle, and God created all the principles.” He is right in saying that too often churches have permitted abuse, waste, and ineptitude in the name of forgiveness, family, and niceness. He is also right in declaring it makes sense to learn from others. We should be reexamining Scripture for wisdom as well as sifting through leadership and business management books for wise insight. (See my list of recommended business management books that are helpful for pastors here).

But Christian leaders are different from other leaders because of their Christian character (as Andy tacitly indicates in his words about the importance of prayer, counsel, and integrity when he speaks to church leaders). If leaders are not formed by Scripture, prayer and counsel [Eugene Peterson calls these the three angles in his book Working the Angles)], their vision and leadership will ultimately be shallow and self-serving. So I think Andy overstates the case when he says “There’s nothing distinctly spiritual [about the kind of leadership I do].” There is such a thing as spiritual (pleasing-to-the-Holy-Spirit) leadership that is often different from secular business leadership. Spiritual formation will actually change the way we do leadership. Some practices which would violate Scripture cannot be used even to meet seemingly good goals. In other words, Scripture restrains the use of some means. The ends do not always justify the means.

Eric Reed is right in pointing out that many young people are attracted to Andy Stanley but that he does not fit with the “emerging” leader profile which is also popular among young people. Reed writes:

“Stanley is becoming the model for the next generation of large church pastors [note Reed’s adjective large] . . . Because Andy connects well with younger leaders, who in general are bent more toward spiritual formation than church growth . . . I thought I’d hear something that backed up the pendulum swing we have heard prominent emerging leaders identify--that younger leaders don’t buy all the church growth stuff, that the models that built megachurches worked for boomers, but for Gen-X and younger? Fuggidaboudit.”

Many young suburban white young adults are attracted to Andy Stanley. He is what they want to be: attractive, making-a-difference, young, confident, and articulate with a gorgeous facility and a talented staff. But Eddie Gibbs and Ryan Bolger describe in Emerging Churches a different set of young people who don’t want to copy management principles or accept megachurch assumptions. They want to emulate Jesus’ practices – wandering around talking to people, without a building, praying, telling stories, and helping people. Seeker churches like Stanley’s, on the other hand, want people to “meet Jesus” through getting them through whatever means to sit in the seats of their church.

My comments on the Gibbs and Bolger book Emerging Churches are here.

Most of the college students in my classes at Taylor University are attracted to both Andy Stanley and the Emerging church conversation. They are attracted to young charismatic leaders regardless of their ministry approach. Rob Bell and Erwin McManus are probably the two most popular among them since they have all the things Andy Stanley has (attractive, making-a-difference, young, confident, and articulate with a large facility and a talented staff) but also embrace some of aspects of the emerging churches: art, attitude, informality, stories, urban culture, and justice.

See my list of sermon audio links to listen to Stanley, Bell and McManus here.

For a scholarly presentation of how the apostle Paul dealt with secular ideas of leadership when they began to appear in Corinth, listen to New Testament scholar Bruce Winter's lecture "Secularization of First Century Christian Leadership - Inroads of Secular Models." Here is the synopsis.

Bruce Winter questions the word "leader" as the name we use when talking about church ministers. He says Paul intentionally does not use the Greek word for leader to describe the ministers in the early church. Winter also says Paul intentionally rejected the braggart, money-making, attractive orator image that was readily apparent in the culture at the time.

This must cause all of us to pause as we think of the kind of Christian leaders that are so often held up as "making a difference" in our culture. Most often they get famous as successful pastors because they are great speakers and attractive. Perhaps this is always the way to fame and there is no preventing it. But that does not mean we need to try to emulate the famous (as is so natural).

Jeffrey Fox lays out "the rules to rise to the top of any organization" in How to Become CEO. Here are a few out of the 75.

  • Keep Physically Fit
  • Dress for a Dance
  • Be Visible
  • Learn to Speak and Write in Plain English
  • Say Things to Make People Feel Good
  • Look Sharp and Be Sharp
  • The Concept Doesn't Have to Be Perfect But the Execution of It Does

I am quite sure that Fox is right that if we applied these we could rise to the top of any organization including the church. The Corinthians would have sent Paul the book. "Work on your appearance, Paul. Don't do manual labor. Charge higher fees. Try to be a bit more polished."

We could work on those things or instead we could learn to pray the Psalms.

1 Sam 16:7. But the LORD said to Samuel, "Do not consider his appearance or his height, for I have rejected him. The LORD does not look at the things human beings look at. People look at the outward appearance, but the LORD looks at the heart" (TNIV).

May God give us wisdom to do our tasks well - gathering wisdom wherever we may find it - from secular and Christian mentors and books. But may God also form us as people after his own heart so that we do the right tasks in the right way.

January 28, 2006

Favorite Audio Sermons and Lectures

This post was updated on August 30, 2006.

Below I have placed links to lots of free audio of good teachers and speakers on the internet.

See also my list of favorite podcasts for church leaders here

30GoodMinutes.org including Frederick Buechner, Richard Foster, Thomas Groome, Calvin Miller, Lewis Smedes, Jim Wallis, Walter Wangerin, Will Willimon, Philip Yancey

Allelon - NT Wright, Brian McLaren, Eugene Peterson, Dallas Willard

American Rhetoric including Alexander Solzhenitsyn and Bono

Andy Stanley - North Point Community Church

Andy Stanley - Practically Speaking - Seven Practices of Effective Ministry Series

BibleGateway.com Audio Bibles

Billy Graham and Franklin Graham - The Hour of Decision Past Broadcasts

Bob Russell - OnePlace.com - Broadcast Archives

Brenda Salter McNeil - Urban Youth Workers Institute - "Elevate" -  2004

Brenda Salter McNeil - New Community (Chicago) - "Racial Reconciliation" - 11/20/2005

Brian McLaren - Cedar Ridge Community Church including series on Emerging Church in Sept-Oct 2005.

Brian McLaren Q&A with Canadian Church Leaders "Resonate" in April 2006.

Brian McLaren - Grand Rapids Theological Seminary - What is Emerging?

Catalyst Conference Podcast Interviews with Andy Stanley, Erwin McManus, Donald Miller, Tim Sanders, Eugene Peterson. Rob Bell, Mike Foster and Louie Giglio.

Cornel West at Whitman College

Covenant Theological Seminary's "Covenant Worldwide" - free seminary courses.

Craig Barnes and John Perkins - Shadyside Presbyterian Church Recent Sermons

Da Vinci Code - New Testament scholars Richard Hays and Bart Ehrman Debate - April 2006

Dallas Willard Audio

Darrell Johnson, Ken Shigematsu, Larry Crabb, John Stackhouse - Tenth Avenue Church

David Dark - The Message in the Matrix - 25 minute interview

Durham NT Seminar Audio Archives including NT Wright, James Dunn, Walter Moberly, Francis Watson, John Barclay

Eddie Gibbs and Ryan Bolger Lecture on Emerging Churches at Fuller Seminary

Emergent Village Podcasts including LeRon Shults, Miroslav Volf, Stanley Hauerwas, and Scot McKnight.

Erwin McManus - Mosaic Podcast

European Leadership Forum - Resources for European evangelical leaders - Amy Orr-Ewing, Don Carson, Ravi Zacharias, Bruce Winter, Darrell Bock, Henri Blocher, and William Lane Craig.

Following Christ 2002-2003 - InterVarsity Plenary Session Speakers - Marva Dawn, Miroslav Volf, Dallas Willard

For Sale - Regent Bookstore Online MP3 CDs

For Sale - Willow Creek Conference Resources

For Sale - Youth Specialties 2005 National Youth Workers Convention - San Diego, California

For Sale Youth Specialties 2004 National Youth Workers Convention - San Diego, California

For Sale Youth Specialties Pastor's Conference 2003

Grand Rapids Theological Seminary Chapel: Rodney Clapp, Robert Webber, Brian McLaren, Scot McKnight, DA Carson

Gordon-Conwell's Dimensions of the Faith free online theological education program. Listen to full Church History, Systematic Theology, and Biblical Studies courses.

InterVarsity Christian Fellowship Audio

J.I. Packer - St. John's Shaughnessy Anglican Church

John Ortberg - Menlo Park Presbyterian Church - Menlo Park, CA - Sermons Online

John Piper - Audio Sermons

John Stott, Alister McGrath, Philip Yancey - All Souls Church, Langham Place

John Stott "A Call to Christian Maturity" Mariner's Church, Calif. Nov 2005

Larry Crabb - New Way Ministries

Leadership Network resources - mission statement: to identify, connect and help high-capacity Christian leaders multiply their impact.

Leith Anderson - Weekly Sermons

Marva Dawn interview. It is excellent.  From WBCL - a Christian radio station in Fort Wayne, IN.  March 24, 2006.  You can only listen to it online. 

Max Lucado - UpWords

N.T. Wright Page

New Perspective on Paul Opponents- Theopedia - DA Carson

Off-The-Map - Brian McLaren on Evangelism

Parker Palmer Lecture

Pittsburgh Theological Seminary Audio including Ken Bailey

Pittsburgh Theological Seminary Audio including Emerging Church Discussions with John Franke

Preaching Today Audio - They ususally have one free under "Media"

Princeton Theological Seminary Emerging Church Theological Education Caucus with Brian McLaren, Tony Jones, Kenda Dean, and Doug Pagitt

Princeton Theological Seminary Institute for Youth Ministry - Cloud of Witnesses: An Audio Journal on Youth, Church and Culture including Eugene Peterson and Darrell Guder

Regent College Radio

Resurgence Podcasts including Mark Driscoll, Tim Keller, John Piper, Chris Seay

Rob Bell - Mars Hill

Stuart and Jill Briscoe - Elmbrook Church, Brookfield, Wisconsin

Taylor University Chapel Archives 2005-2006 - Jay Kesler, Dan Allender

Tony Jones talks with Alan Hartung - March 2006

The Veritas Forum - Donald Miller, Alvin Plantinga, William Lane Craig

Tim Keller - Redeemer Presbyterian Church

Tim Keller - free archive

Tony Campolo's Messages

Wheaton College Chapel - now free!

Willow Creek's most recent mid-week "New Community" sermons

Basics of listening to MP3’s:

In the olden days, I would listen to tapes. Now I usually listen to MP3’s. If you are technologically fearful and don’t want to deal with the hassle of MP3’s, you can always pay for CD's and tapes. Almost all the sites above have places where you can order CD's or tapes. But if you want to listen to free stuff, this is the ticket!

MP3’s are computer files. So you can listen to them on any computer and on most new CD players and DVD players and of course portable MP3 players. Your computer will likely play them in Windows Media Player, or on the basic Real Player (which is free to download here) or in ITunes (which you can download for free here). Basically, you just click on the sites above and you click on the sermon you want to listen to and it will pop up and begin playing. Make sure you have your volume up on your computer (Control Panel . . . Sounds and Audio Devices . . . )

Some of the audio are only available when you are connected to the internet. Usually they play in Real Player only or some other player. But most are MP3's that you can download and listen to later. If you want to save a copy to your computer to listen to later, you can often right click the link and click "Save Target as . . ." and save the MP3 to a folder of your choice on your computer. For example, you can do this with the Veritas files. (These are big files (20-50 MB) so you don't want to do this with Dial Up.)

Once you have it on your computer, you can burn it to a CD and play it in your CD player or DVD player or MP3 player. Or just listen to it from your computer like I do. I hook my laptop up to my stereo by having a cord that goes from my laptop headphone jack into my stereo.

See my description here of my listening habits.

Influential Books by Contemporary Mostly-American Pastors Describing How They Do Ministry.

I have given you denomination, website, and attendance if I could find the data.

Anderson, Leith. Dying for Change. Bethany House Publishers, 1998.

________________. Leadership That Works: Hope and Direction for Church and Parachurch Leaders in Today's Complex World. Bethany House Publishers, 2002.

http://www.wooddale.org/ Wooddale Church; non-denominational but is associated with Baptist General Conference; Minnesota; 4000 attendance; six daughter churches.

Bell, Rob. Velvet Elvis: Repainting the Christian Faith. Grand Rapids: Zondervan, 2005.

http://www.mhbcmi.org/findex.html Mars Hill Bible Church. Non-denominational; Michigan. 10,000 attendance. Emergent.

Bisagno, John R. Letters to Timothy: A Handbook for Pastors. Broadman & Holman Publishers, 2001.

http://www.houstonsfirst.org/ Houston’s First Baptist Church. Retired in 2000. 8,000 attendance.

Cladis, George. Leading the Team-Based Church: How Pastors and Church Staffs Can Grow Together into a Powerful Fellowship of Leaders. Jossey-Bass, 1999.

Former pastor at http://www.westminster-okc.org/index2.html and http://www.norotonchurch.org/ Medium sized PCUSA churches.

Cole, Neil. Organic Church: Growing Faith Where Life Happens. Jossey-Bass, 2005.

http://www.cmaresources.org/ Church Multiplication Associates. Founder of Awakening Chapels – house churches targeting younger people in urban settings.

Cymbala, Jim with Stephen Sorenson. The Church God Blesses. Grand Rapids: Zondervan, 2002.

Brooklyn. Brooklyn Tabernacle. 10,000 attendance. http://www.brooklyntabernacle.org/ Non-denom.

Driscoll, Mark. The Radical Reformission : Reaching Out without Selling Out. Grand Rapids: Zondervan, 2004.

________________. Confessions of a Reformission Rev: Hard Lessons From an Emerging Missional Church. Zondervan, 2006.

Mars Hill Church, Seattle. http://www.marshillchurch.org/ Acts 29 church planting network. http://www.acts29network.org/ Emergent. Non-denominational roots with PCA theology.

Frazee, Randy. The Connecting Church. Grand Rapids: Zondervan, 2001.

Now a teaching pastor at Willow Creek Community Church. Was Senior Pastor at Pantego Bible Church in Fort Worth, Texas from 1990-2005. http://www.pantego.org/index.cfm Non-denom. Megachurch.

Hansen, David. The Art of Pastoring: Ministry Without All the Answers. Downers Grove: InterVarsity, 1994.

http://www.kenwoodbaptist.com/index.html Kenwood Baptist Church. American Baptist. Cincinnati, OH. Attendance 500.

Hull, Bill. The Disciple Making Pastor. Grand Rapids: Fleming H. Revell, 1988.

Was pastor in Evangelical Free Churches. Now works with http://www.tnetwork.com/index.htm 

Hybels, Bill. Courageous Leadership. Grand Rapids: Zondervan, 2002.

http://www.willowcreek.org/ Founding Pastor; South Barrington, IL. 17,500 attendance.

Kimball, Dan. The Emerging Church. Grand Rapids: Zondervan, 2003.

http://www.vintagefaith.com/ and blog: http://dankimball.typepad.com/ and Vintage Faith Church http://www.vintagechurch.org/ 400-500 attendance. Non-denom. Emergent.

Lewis, Robert with Rob Wilkins. The Church of Irresistible Influence. Grand Rapids: Zondervan, 2001.

Lewis is former pastor of http://www.fbclr.org/ Fellowship Bible Church in Little Rock, AK. Non-denom. 2,000 attendance.

Lewis, Robert and Wayne Cordeiro with Warren Bird. Culture Shift: Transforming Your Church from the Inside Out. Jossey-Bass, 2005.

Cordeiro is Senior Pastor of New Hope Christian Fellowship O'ahu, a Foursquare church in Honolulu, Hawaii. http://www.enewhope.org/index.php 9,000 attendance.

Mallory, Sue. The Equipping Church. Grand Rapids: Zondervan, 2001.

Executive Director of Group Publishing’s Church Volunteer Central. http://shop.grouppublishing.com/cvc/index.asp Was director of lay ministries at Brentwood Presbyterian Church http://www.bpcusa.org/index.asp PCUSA, 1200 members. Los Angeles.

McLaren, Brian. The Church on the Other Side. Grand Rapids: Zondervan, 2003.

Founding pastor of Cedar Ridge Community Church http://www.crcc.org/ No longer Senior Pastor. Non-denom. Personal website: http://www.anewkindofchristian.com/ Maryland. Emergent.

McManus, Erwin Raphael. An Unstoppable Force: Daring to Become the Church God Had in Mind. Group, 2001.

Personal website: http://www.erwinmcmanus.com/ Mosaic church http://www.mosaic.org/ Southern Baptist. Megachurch. Los Angeles. Emergent.

Mittelberg, Mark and Bill Hybels. Building a Contagious Church: Revolutionizing the Way We View and Do Evangelism. Grand Rapids: Zondervan, 2000.

See Hybels above. Mittelberg is Executive Director of Evangelism for the Willow Creek Association. http://www.willowcreek.com/

Pagitt, Doug. Church Re-Imagined: The Spiritual Formation of People in Communities of Faith. Grand Rapids: Zondervan, 2005.

Personal blog: http://pagitt.typepad.com/ Solomon’s Porch: http://www.solomonsporch.com/index.html Minneapolis.

Peterson, Eugene H. Working the Angles: The Shape of Pastoral Integrity. Grand Rapids: Eerdmans, 1987.

________________. The Contemplative Pastor: Returning to the Art of Spiritual Direction. Eerdmans, 1993.

Founding pastor of Christ Our King Presbyterian Church in Bel Air, Maryland. PCUSA; 300 attendance. Left in 1992 to be professor at Regent College.

Rusaw, Rick and Eric Swanson. The Externally Focused Church. Group, 2004.

Rusaw is Senior Minister at LifeBridge Christian Church in Longmont, Colorado. 3,000 attendance. Non-denom. http://www.lbcc.org/templates/cla23bl/default.asp?id=22545
Swanson worked with Campus Crusade for Christ for twenty-five years before moving to the Leadership Network.
http://www.leadnet.org/ 

Scazzero, Peter with Warren Bird. The Emotionally Healthy Church: A Strategy for Discipleship That Actually Changes Lives. Grand Rapids: Zondervan, 2003.

Senior pastor at New Life Fellowship. http://www.newlifefellowship.org/ Queens, NY. Four other churches planted.

Stanley, Andy, Lane Jones and Reggie Joiner. The Seven Practices of Effective Ministry. Multnomah, 2004.

Stanley is pastor of http://www.northpoint.org/ North Point Community Church. 14,000 attendance. Georgia. Nondenom.

Stanley, Andy and Ed Young. Can We Do That? 24 Innovative Practices That Will Change the Way You Do Church. Howard, 2002.

Young is http://www.fellowshipchurch.com/fcweb/home.aspx 16,000 attendance; Grapevine, TX. Southern Baptist.

Stevens, Tim and Tony Morgan. Simply Strategic Stuff: Help for Leaders Drowning in the Details of Running a Church. Group, 2003.

Granger Community Church, Indiana. 4,300 attendance. http://www.gccwired.com/ United Methodist Church.

Taylor, Steve. The Out of Bounds Church? Learning to Create a Community of Faith in a Culture of Change. Zondervan, 2005.

Personal blog: http://www.emergentkiwi.org.nz/ Pastor of Opawa Baptist Church http://www.opawa.org.nz/ New Zealand. Medium-size.

Waltz, Mark L. First Impressions: Creating Wow Experiences In Your Church. Group, 2004.

See Granger Community Church under Stevens.

Warren, Rick. The Purpose Driven Church: Growth Without Compromising Your Message & Mission. Grand Rapids: Zondervan, 1995.

http://www.saddleback.com/flash/default.htm 15,000 attendance; California. Southern Baptist.

Preaching Bibliography

Bell, Rob. “The Subversive Art: Drawing from the prophets, the rabbis and Jesus to confront the culture.” Leadership Journal. XXV.2 (2004): 24.

Bell, Rob. “Life in Leviticus: Planting this church, I spent a year preaching through Leviticus, and (surprise!) it worked.” Leadership Journal. Winter (2002): 45-47.

Gibson, Scott M., ed. Preaching to a Shifting Culture: 12 Perspectives on Communicating That Connects. Baker Books, 2004.

Johnston, Graham. Preaching to a Postmodern World: A Guide to Reaching Twenty-First Century Listeners. Baker Books: 2001.

Kimball, Dan. “Preaching: Becoming Storytellers Again.” “Preaching Without Words.” and “Spiritual Formation.” Ch.16-17, 19. The Emerging Church. Grand Rapids: Zondervan, 2003. 155-196, 213-225

Larson, Craig Brian and Haddon Robinson, eds. The Art & Craft of Biblical Preaching: A Comprehensive Resource for Today's Communicators. Zondervan, 2005.

Long, Thomas G. Witness of Preaching. Westminster John Knox Press, 1990.

McLaren, Brian. “Learn a New Rhetoric” The Church on the Other Side. Grand Rapids: Zondervan, 2000. 87-93

Nelson, Alan E. Creating Messages That Connect: 10 Secrets of Effective Communicators. Group Publishing, 2004.

Pagitt, Doug. Preaching Re-Imagined. Zondervan, 2005.

Robinson, Haddon W. Biblical Preaching: The Development and Delivery of Expository Messages. 2nd ed. Baker Academic, 2001.

Stone, Dave. Refining Your Style: Learning from Respected Communicators. Group Publishing, 2004.

Stott, John. Between Two Worlds: The Challenge of Preaching Today. Eerdmans, 1994.

Taylor, Barbara Brown. The Preaching Life. Cowley Publications, 1993.

Troeger, Thomas H. Ten Strategies for Preaching in a Multimedia Culture. Abingdon Press, 1996.

Wilson, Len and Jason Moore. Digital Storytellers: The Art of Communicating the Gospel in Worship. Abingdon Press, 2002.